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4/30/2014 9:14 pm  #1


"Lordship Salvation" movement, Charles Spurgeon

The best fit so far is that The Texas Boys seem to be a Lordship Salvation group.
 
What's "Lordship Salvation?"
 
Dr. Andy Woods, Sugar Land Bible Church: 
"Lordship Salvation is the idea that an unbeliever must commit all areas of his life to Christ as a condition for being saved. Lordship Salvation began to significantly enter the American evangelical community in the 1980's through the ministries of various prominent theologians and pastors. The movement began with the well-intentioned concern to address too much carnality in the Christian world. However, the proposed solution to this legitimate concern was to increase the sole requirement for salvation in an attempt to argue that carnal Christians were never really saved in the first place since they had never initially yielded to Christ's Lordship." 
http://www.bibleprophecyblog.com/2011/03/what-is-wrong-with-lordship-salvation.html#
 
Excerpted from https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR_vEi5ed-nd6ktr2aVYbEtEv-ehOvj-sELHEtgjHhVZFsjBHfSg8tQRLc

How Faith Works
The volcanic issue of "Lordship Salvation" is still emitting the smoke and fumes of controversy.
S. Lewis Johnson Jr./ JULY 12, 2012
 
The phases through which the issue of "Lordship Salvation" passes may be likened to those of a volcano. The issue often lies dormant for years, but then it suddenly erupts violently. Unfortunately, unlike volcanoes, the issue of Lordship Salvation refuses to grow extinct. The issue is still active, emitting the smoke and sulfurous fumes of controversy.
The forerunner of the current debate erupted in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Two well-known evangelicals, Everett F. Harrison and John R. W. Stott, debated the issue in Eternity magazine in September 1959. Harrison was the first professor of New Testament at Fuller Theological Seminary and Stott was at the time rector of All Souls Church in London. Harrison took the position that, while the acknowledgment of Jesus as Lord is essential to salvation, the demand that "one must make Jesus his Lord as well as his Savior to be truly redeemed" is to confuse salvation with the legitimate obligations of the Christian life. Stott, on the other hand, insisted that one must "surrender to the Lordship of Christ" to be saved.
"Lordship Salvation," then, is the claim that, to be saved, one must not only believe and acknowledge that Christ is Lord, but also submit to his lordship.
The latest eruption has occurred with the publication of The Gospel According to Jesus (Zondervan, 1988), by John F. MacArthur, popular California pastor and president of the Master's College and Seminary.
It's really worth reading the whole article.

"...submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is an issue of spiritual growth, not salvation. The Christian life is a process of submitting to God in increasing measure. A person does not have to submit to God in every area of his or her life in order to be saved. A person simply has to recognize that he or she is a sinner, in need of Jesus Christ for salvation, and place trust in Him. Jesus is Lord. Christians absolutely should submit to Him. A changed life and submission to Christ's lordship are the result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation."
http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html#ixzz30PaJhLUW

 

“The Gospel is not a call to repentance, or to amendment of our ways, to make restitution for past sins, or to promise to do better in the future. These things are proper in their place, but they do not constitute the Gospel; for the Gospel is not good advice to be obeyed, it is good news to be believed. Do not make the mistake then of thinking that the Gospel is a call to duty or a call to reformation, a call to better your condition, to behave yourself in a more perfect way than you have been doing in the past …
Nor is the Gospel a demand that you give up the world, that you give up your sins, that you break off bad habits, and try to cultivate good ones. You may do all these things, and yet never believe the Gospel and consequently never be saved at all.”
                                             -- Pastor Harry A. Ironside (1876-1951). What Is The Gospel?

 

Charles Spurgeon DIDN'T Teach Lordship Salvation
By David J. Stewart | September 2008
 

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608050640622782257&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0
You know there are degrees of faith, and yet the least faith saves; so there are degrees of repentance, and the least repentance will save the soul if it is sincere. The Bible says, "He that believeth shall be saved," and when it says that, it includes the very smallest degree of faith. So when it says, "Repent and be saved," it includes the man who has the lowest degree of real repentance. Repentance, moreover, is never perfect in any man in this mortal state. We never get perfect faith so as to be entirely free from doubting; and we never get repentance which is free from some hardness of heart. The most sincere penitent that you know will feel himself to be partially impenitent.
Repentance is also a continual life-long act. It will grow continually. I believe a Christian on his death-bed will more bitterly repent than ever he did before. It is a thing to be done all your life long. Sinning and repenting—sinning and repenting, make up a Christian's life. Repenting and believing in Jesus—repenting and believing in Jesus, make up the consummation of his happiness. You must not expect that you will be perfect in "repentance" before you are saved. No Christian can be perfect. "Repentance" is a grace. Some people preach it as a condition of salvation. Condition of nonsense! There are no conditions of salvation.
                                                         -- Charles Spurgeon
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0044.htm (New Park Street Chapel, Southwark, September 23, 1855)

 
Clearly, Charles Haddon Spurgeon DIDN'T believe that forsaking one's sins, or grieving, or feeling sorrow, or being willing to turn from them, was necessary to be saved.  Rather, Spurgeon believed that they were evidences of genuine repentance.  Spurgeon did in fact teach, as have other great men of God, that a sinner ought to turn from his or her sins as evidence of genuine repentance; but this is after-the-fact, and not a requirement for salvation itself.  Spurgeon plainly taught "there are no conditions of salvation," which is what the Bible teaches.

Biblically, repentance is a "change of mind."  The changes that follow are the result of true repentance at work; and not repentance itself.
 
Also, notice that Spurgeon stated: "Repentance is also a continual life-long act."  Spurgeon was not teaching that salvation is a process, because it's not.  Spurgeon simply meant that once a person initially repents, thus acknowledging their guilty sinful condition and trusting the Lord by faith to be forgiven, those same elements of repentance and faith will work in the believer's mind and heart for the rest of their life.  Salvation is more than being saved.  When God saves us, the lifelong process of growing in the Lord begins.
 
Clearly, Spurgeon taught a Free Grace view of the Gospel; not a gospel that requires lost sinners to forsake personal sins to be saved.  Who can do that?  Even the best of Christians still sin every day!  Even our ignorance is part of our sin.  Like it or not, Charles Spurgeon plainly taught the truth that "there are no conditions of salvation."  
http://www.soulwinning.info/fd/lordship_salvation/spurgeon.htm


Okay, all of that said, there's a few sticky wickets. Some of this business is based on, or in objection to, a thing called Westminster Confession of Faith.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Westminster_Confession_of_Faith_title_page.jpg/220px-Westminster_Confession_of_Faith_title_page.jpg

It's a pact drawn up by the Reformation preachers and politicians, the King's people, the English Parliment, etc etc. at Westminster Abbey in 1646. Then the Puritans and Scottish, English, Dutch, etc. preachers who immigrated to America did a revision.
Now some evangelical fundamentalist Protestants embrace it and others reject it. One more thing to argue about. What's difficult to understand is who likes it and who doesn't. It's confusing. Often, the theological 'experts' don't appear to understand it clearly themselves. And often inconsistent and contradictory.

According to the way its described in the "How Faith Works" article above, the Westminster business takes the more common conventional approach to repentance, as opposed to "Church of Wells" doctrine. So theoretically, the Texas Boys and cohorts would reject the Westminster Confession of Faith. Which is weird. Considering it's an original statement of faith from the Old-Timey 16th-century English guys they idolize.

But, hey, I'm no ecumenical scholar. Never heard of any of this stuff before. So maybe I've got it all wrong. But not about the Spurgeon bit.

Did you know Spurgeon was the very first "mega-church" celebrity preacher? And he had an orphanage; a pretty terrible one, by first-hand reports.

Last edited by Tom (4/30/2014 9:15 pm)

4/30/2014 10:58 pm  #2


Re: "Lordship Salvation" movement, Charles Spurgeon

Proud to be an orphan: How an orphanage where cold showers and sadistic beatings became home
By PETER PATERSON
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTBl0O2DRxxv7I42TO-MYOhuNYnD4QSTST6KIPQfTXYCpTvlUNrexeTFPWUaw

New life: At the age of four, Peter Paterson lived at Spurgeon's Orphanage in Stockwell, South-West London. Within minutes of his arrival he was given a brutal glimpse of the strict regime that lay ahead

As the freezing water cascaded over my head, my wails ceased abruptly: I had been stunned into silence by the insult. In defence of the nurse, whom I later learned was called Miss Barker, I had been sick on the tram on my way to the orphanage and, on a hot summer day in late August, 1935, my new sailor suit might have smelled a bit. 
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e392/FaithForum/stockwell2_zps2335b5d4.jpg

Set up in 1867 by the philanthropist and evangelist Charles Haddon Spurgeon ‘for the care of fatherless or motherless boys’, Spurgeon’s probably hadn’t changed much in the 70 years that preceded my arrival. It was religious, controlling and punitive, placing its faith in cleanliness, corporal punishment and learning by rote. 
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e392/FaithForum/stockwell_zps0ae857d4.jpg

One boy recalled how before the war he was beaten three times in one day by the same teacher. Me, I considered once a day more than enough.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e392/FaithForum/stockwell3_zps5a467a06.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1356099/Proud-orphan-How-orphanage-cold-showers-sadistic-beatings-home.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Lifeofcharleshad00rayciala_0371.jpg/766px-Lifeofcharleshad00rayciala_0371.jpg



http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e392/FaithForum/stockwell5_zps9e783693.jpg


http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e392/FaithForum/stockwell4_zps8731b3f4.jpg

 

Last edited by Tom (7/13/2014 4:18 pm)

     Thread Starter

5/01/2014 3:01 pm  #3


Re: "Lordship Salvation" movement, Charles Spurgeon

Seems clear enough. What's the big conflict of belief here for the Wells group leaders? Why are they doing this to themselves? What is their agenda?
 

5/01/2014 7:28 pm  #4


Re: "Lordship Salvation" movement, Charles Spurgeon

Shoot, guess they'll have to remove Spurgeon from their banner. He obviously didn't understand the Scripture if his theology doesn't line up with theirs.

7/13/2014 4:22 pm  #5


Re: "Lordship Salvation" movement, Charles Spurgeon

Right?!
 

8/14/2014 3:15 pm  #6


Re: "Lordship Salvation" movement, Charles Spurgeon

8/14/2014 4:07 pm  #7


Re: "Lordship Salvation" movement, Charles Spurgeon

Utterly terrifying. Here are a few things that jump out.

1.

He (Sean) is my lord and master...how I need Christ in Sean to be saved!

This is certainly a first. We knew the importance of marriage and the latent patriarchy... but NEEDING Christ in Sean for Preethi to be saved? That's a new one. I guess it's no longer Faith Alone, Grace Alone, Christ Alone? I'll need to search through their doctrine again and see where on earth this came about.

2.

Do you contain enough sobriety of mind to read my witness, if perchance there be any truth in what I speak...But when judgment is forsaken the masses are annihilated under the just wrath of God!

Believe me or God will kill you! I giggled a bit when I read this.

3.

The WORD of God is the judge. We do not judge our own judgment. We declare the WORD of God. The WORD of God is your judge. My earnest plea to you is to search these matters out with all of your heart before it is too late http://www.thecondescensionofgod.com/It is not beyond you. If you seek Him with all your heart, He will come to you wherever you are and reveal Himself to you. He will condescend to you as much as He must that He may save you by His WORD.



Red flags are flying; alarm bells are sounding. If I understand her right, the Word is the judge. Christ is the Word. His Word is found in the Bible. I think we'd all agree on that point. I think we'd also agree that it would be wise to tell a seeker to read a bible to learn more about Christ. Great. But what does she do? She points the reader to Sean's book, the Condecension of God! Holy crap. If that's not the most egregious mark of a cult, then I don't know what is. I know started a review of that book somewhere on this site... I recall reading a bit where he contradicts himself on how how book should not replace the bible, but be a necessary tool or additional revelation (or something like that). The first thing I thought of when I read this was the Mormon boys passing out copies of The Book of Mormon as must-read texts. The one thing that separates the Mormons from CoW is that they will give you a copy of the NKJV to read with it. In her final paragraph diatribe about The WORD, she doens't link one verse or scriptural resource.. only Sean's book. Let's see if she edits it... 

8/14/2014 4:18 pm  #8


Re: "Lordship Salvation" movement, Charles Spurgeon

"Chris Faulkner, an ex-Church of Wells member, who is presently a false prophet and deceiver, transformed into an angel of light."

huh?
 

8/14/2014 5:49 pm  #9


Re: "Lordship Salvation" movement, Charles Spurgeon

Kjdean49 wrote:

"Chris Faulkner, an ex-Church of Wells member, who is presently a false prophet and deceiver, transformed into an angel of light."

huh?
 

"Huh" is right. Makes no sense at all, in fact alot of it makes no sense!http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/confused.png

8/14/2014 5:51 pm  #10


Re: "Lordship Salvation" movement, Charles Spurgeon

All this talk about false churches all over America (sans theirs) and yet Moses referred a friend of his to a Lutheran church for a kids program. Really? Another thing that makes no sense!

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