Church of Wells/YMBBA Ministries



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12/01/2013 10:39 pm  #11


Re: What other spiritual leaders/pastors have to say

Aww. Yep, you're right, only a matter of time...

 

12/02/2013 10:21 pm  #12


Re: What other spiritual leaders/pastors have to say

concernedhere wrote:

I am a Baptist Pastor and until a few weeks ago, had been in communication with one of the so called elders of CoW. I had hoped to offer some help to some friends of mine who have a daughter in the group. They even drove to the state I live in for a face to face meeting. In the coming days I will be sharing my personal conclusions and observations from my talks with them.

They recently decided to cut communication with me but not before offering a rebuke to me. It was only a matter if time.

 
With your insights and that of other pastors interceding on behalf of the members, i wonder if any  ex members would be willing to help organize a counter recruitment strategy.  The media blitz has been a mixed bag for the Groves' family but has certainly drawn attention and that alone has brought this group into the light for discernment.   I would imagine a few parents here would be willing to contribute time and effort in addition to prayer support.


Heb 4:12
 

12/02/2013 11:06 pm  #13


Re: What other spiritual leaders/pastors have to say

2 Peter wrote:

concernedhere wrote:

I am a Baptist Pastor and until a few weeks ago, had been in communication with one of the so called elders of CoW. I had hoped to offer some help to some friends of mine who have a daughter in the group. They even drove to the state I live in for a face to face meeting. In the coming days I will be sharing my personal conclusions and observations from my talks with them.

They recently decided to cut communication with me but not before offering a rebuke to me. It was only a matter if time.

 
With your insights and that of other pastors interceding on behalf of the members, i wonder if any ex members would be willing to help organize a counter recruitment strategy. The media blitz has been a mixed bag for the Groves' family but has certainly drawn attention and that alone has brought this group into the light for discernment. I would imagine a few parents here would be willing to contribute time and effort in addition to prayer support.

Great idea and yes I would be interested! 
 

 

12/04/2013 10:51 am  #14


Re: What other spiritual leaders/pastors have to say

2 Peter wrote:

 i wonder if any ex members would be willing to help organize a counter recruitment strategy.

How many ex-members are there, 2Peter?

The media blitz has been a mixed bag for the Groves' family but has certainly drawn attention and that alone has brought this group into the light for discernment.

The Groves are to be commended for hanging it all out there, in the media. It takes guts to do that; what confidence and courage. They publicly show themselves to be a strong cohesive group and unafraid. Much to be admired.

I would imagine a few parents here would be willing to contribute time and effort in addition to prayer support.

Keep us updated on when and where.
 

     Thread Starter
 

12/04/2013 9:33 pm  #15


Re: What other spiritual leaders/pastors have to say

anon wrote:

2 Peter wrote:

 i wonder if any ex members would be willing to help organize a counter recruitment strategy.

How many ex-members are there, 2Peter?

The media blitz has been a mixed bag for the Groves' family but has certainly drawn attention and that alone has brought this group into the light for discernment.

The Groves are to be commended for hanging it all out there, in the media. It takes guts to do that; what confidence and courage. They publicly show themselves to be a strong cohesive group and unafraid. Much to be admired.

I would imagine a few parents here would be willing to contribute time and effort in addition to prayer support.

Keep us updated on when and where.
 

 Media attention has been considered a "blessing" by the Church of Wells as they claim dozens of potential recruits have contacted them with interest in their Church via Internet.  Persecution is a badge of honor for them. I believe this account enough that I am dismayed at the thought that other young people would fall into this trap because of media hype and curiosity.  I believe prayer to be a far greater force against evil like this.

 

12/05/2013 11:38 am  #16


Re: What other spiritual leaders/pastors have to say

In the coming days I will continue to post portions of my conclusions from the CoW. Here are the initial observations that I made through my own communication with and observation of CoW. There will be more to come. 

I want you to understand the context of my conclusions. I am a Pastor of a Southern Baptist Church and friends with a family who have daughter that is now part of the CoW. Though I was never extremely close with this family while I was growing up, when I became aware of what was happening with their daughter, my concern grew tremendously. As a Pastor, I am always interested in new religious movements and cults and the threat they can pose to other people. Out of concern, I reached out to the three elders of the CoW and, to my surprise, one of them called me. These conversations continued and even included a face to face meeting. All three elders drove to the state I live in for this meeting. They asked for the face to face meeting themselves. Since then I have had some communication with the elders but most recently they have discontinued communication with me. My hope was to speak some truth and reason into an unreasonable situation and to help this family that I care about very much. Whether either goal was met, I may never know. Here is the 'introduction' to my own conclusion. 


            I began my search at the ‘Church of Wells’ website. On that website I quickly saw what I determined to be an increasingly dangerous and troublesome group that held to a form of ‘Lordship Salvation’ theology. An seemingly outgrowth of hyper-Calvinism and independent fundamentalism, the group has a system of belief that is formed by the teachings of the Puritans - a fact reflected in their outdated way of speech I immediately saw in their sermons and testimonies. At first sight, many aspects of the their public teaching seem to be orthodox. I can agree that sin separates us from God. I can agree that sin causes us to grieve and mourn. I can agree that salvation is a work of the Lord and is miraculous. I can agree that the Word of God is inspired by God. On the outside, I can understand why this group would have been appealing to someone as faithful as Catherine - they were offering “true” salvation. Yet, the more I dug, the darker the group became and the more worried I became.
            On Wednesday August 27th I spent time researching everything I could find on the Church of Wells. I felt compelled by the Spirit to find out whatever I could so that I could in some way assist the this family - in case that was indeed what was happening.
            The Church of Wells is a New Religious movement that started in 2010 as ‘You Must Be Born Again Ministries.’ There are three elders that founded the worked, Jake Gardner, Sean Morris and Ryan Ringnald. In 2006, Sean Morris was a student at Baylor University that generated some attention because of his ‘street preaching’ in from the Bible Building on the Baylor campus.[1] Later in 2006, Sean started ‘Godcasts’ of his teaching in Waco.[2]
            These three traveled extensively preaching on street corners and attracting a number of young adults, most well under 30. This group was first formed as the ‘Church of Arlington,’ in Arlington, Texas. Most of the members were young, white and from a Christian background. Born out of a desire to ‘resurrect’ the church, the Church of Arlington formed a tight community in the Dallas suburb. The website of YMBBA Ministries said this in July 2010, “"Sean and I have recently been given a tremendous burden to see the Lord build his church in the Dallas area, that the “gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Mt.16:18). By the glorious providence and plan of God, the Lord has been commanding saints (or, “called out ones”), to join us and other brethren in Arlington, Tx., from around this country. The Lord has even given us a church “covering” from our dear brethren at Maranatha Baptist church in Springfield, Mo., under their godly pastor, Don Courville." The goal: "...our primary goal in this church is to maintain a state of perfect holiness and obedience before the Lord, in utter submission to Jesus and the Holy Ghost even unto death."
 In 2012, the organization moved to Wells, Texas - a town of approximately 700 people. In Wells, the elders and other men of the Church of Wells founded a for-profit organization called “Charity Enterprises Incorporated.”[3]  They also operate R&R Mercantile in the town of Wells. In addition, they have a number of other businesses that appear to provide the income for the organization and its members. In a conversation with Ryan Ringnald, one of the elders, he mentioned that if someone is going to become a Christian and join the Church of Wells, there is a process of examination by the elders or other “seasoned” believers. This is important, he mentioned, because if the church is going to "pay someone’s bills" it vital to make sure they are not wolves in sheep’s clothing. This statement seems to imply that there is some communal aspect to their funding.
            The move to Wells is troubling because its nature. The Church of Arlington moved to Wells, Texas and became the Church of Wells. In history, cults and new religious movements move away from city centers in order to get away from the public eye and to practice their faith freely. The Church of Wells seems to have done the same thing. 
            At first look, the Church of Wells may appear to fall into line with many aspects and expressions of evangelical Christianity - especially the Reformed movement of Christianity. They profess the Trinity, the infallibility and plenary inspiration of Scripture, the divinity of Christ, the substitutionary death of Christ, the physical resurrection of Christ, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the depravity of man and fact that God alone authors salvation.[4] Looking over the statement of faith would cause one to think that the Church of Wells is much closer to mainstream evangelicalism than it really is. The issue with the Church of Wells is not only their belief, but their practice. It is the practice of Church of Wells that causes alarm. This practice is built upon their manifesto.
            The ‘manifesto’ of the Church of Wells goes deeper into the group’s faith and practice.[5] There are troubling aspects in the manifesto of the church. In the introduction to the manifesto, Jake Gardner writes that their goal is that “God would be so pleased to indeed to stem the tide, seal the breach, and resurrect His standard of righteousness which has long lain without a Church to bear it.” Gardner is writing that the church has, apart from the Church of Wells, been a false church. This clearly states that the Church of Wells was formed to be true church when there had been done.
            The third paragraph of the manifesto speaks to the ‘self-evident’ truth which the organization holds without any ‘controversy.’ The final sentence is troubling. Gardner writes, “If we see not eye-to-eye in these declarations it is not the beam in our eye, dear reader, but thine that is the issue.” The Church of Wells believes that since they have been born again, they now live in Holiness. They will quickly remind you that they do not hold to Wesleyan perfection, though I think they do not really understand the doctrine. They believe that is one is truly converted then they will have holiness. This holiness removes any prohibition against judgment and, as we can see here, removes the proverbial beam in the eye of the members of the Church of Wells. If you do not agree with them, it is impossible that they are wrong - you must be the problem since they are truly converted and born again.
            The words of the manifesto center around the process of salvation. First, that man is totally depraved and does not have the “faculties” of grace needed for salvation.  Their understanding of salvation is basically Reformed and removes any human responsibility from the process of salvation. Many evangelicals hold to this same exact understanding of salvation. Yet, the Church of Wells seems to use this to cause new converts to question their own salvation.
            This process of actually being born again is, as Gardner writes, “mysterious.” It is the work of God and God alone that produces perfect holiness. Salvation, he writes, is a “salvation from the cause and not the effect- from sin and not from hell.” They do believe that Christ saves from hell but that salvation is minute in comparison to salvation from sin. Sinfulness and the awareness of sin is foundational to the process of salvation.
            The Church of Wells professes a ‘Lordship Salvation’ as Gardner writes “For a man to say that Christ is his Saviour and not his Lord, is, therefore, an impossibility.” Lordship Salvation is a common teaching in many evangelical churches. Yet, as with other doctrines, the problem is the extreme to which the Church of Wells has taken this. They use this teaching to further convince new converts that they are not a Christian since they never called upon Jesus as Lord, but only as Savior.
            The Church of Wells believes in a perpetual salvation. They hold that the Christian is in a continual process of salvation from one’s sins. The evidence of true salvation is the continuation and perseverance of one’s salvation process. If you are not continually holy, you have not been born again.
            Concerning the church, the Church of Wells believes that its structure comes from the Lord and the elders of the church are to see that the church will “make it to heaven safe and sound, blameless, faultless - to see the church perfected.” Unity on all things is expected and the church must not ‘agree to disagree.’ This is troubling because it places immense spiritual control and the possibility of manipulation within the hands of these elders. They are to see the church perfected and disagreement is not welcome. The final word rests with the elders.
            Finally, the Church of Wells holds to a extreme view of separation. The church must be free from any subversion and free from the world. According to the manifesto, any church that is not separate is in rebellion to the Lord.
            The problem with the Church of Wells is not necessarily their theology or doctrine. There are obvious warning signs with much of their manifesto. Yet, many evangelical groups would agree with many aspects of what Gardner writes.  The problem is the extreme to which the Church of Wells takes this teaching. Most of the members of the Church of Wells were professing Christians and were convinced through the elders that they were really not Christians because they still had sin in their lives. It is in the practices of the church that we find reasons to call the Church of Wells a cult.
            How one becomes a Christian is a troubling process within the Church of Wells and is a good example concerning how the practice of the Church of Wells is cultic in nature. There is a kernel of truth that man is a sinner and in need of God - that is perverted. New converts go through a long process, some up to 60 days or more, where they are convinced to question their salvation, convinced of their own horrible sinfulness, asked to confess their sins to the elders and then led through a Church of Wells document called “The Doctrine of Judgment.” From the reports that have been given, new converts are taken through the eleven chapters of this work written by Sean Morris as they are wanting to be born again. Though the Church of Wells professes a salvation free from works, the process is work-intensive. New converts spend hours and hours studying the work of the elders, listening to preaching and reading Scripture. This process is only complete when they are brought before the elders. The elders, as protectors of the church, must ensure the holiness of the church and will not let anyone who is not born again to join. If accepted by the elders, the new convert is baptized.
            Marriage and family is another cause for alarm with the Church of Wells. Single members of the Church of Wells are expected to marry other members of the Church of Wells. For a new convert that is a single woman, this happens very, very fast. The marriages are organized by the elders and are planned by them. The elders yoke together the couples for marriage. They are encouraged to have many children and, as you will read below, some have been counseled not to receive proper medical care. Women are not allowed to speak out of turn or to ‘usurp’ the authority of their husband. There is a clear discrepancy between the men and women in that the men wear more contemporary clothing, have new technology (iPhones, etc.) while the women are relegated to keeping the home.
            Judgment is a foundational cornerstone of the Church of Wells’ practice. They separate from the world and believe that Jesus calls them to be judges of the world’s behavior - especially those who confess to be Christians but do not live up to their standards. Families must be ‘spiritually murdered’ if they do not agree with the teachings of the elders. In an intriguing interpretation of the woman caught in adultery in John the Church of Wells teaches that Jesus never condemned the stoning of the woman. Instead, his condemnation was for those that brought the woman since they did not bring the man also. In their mind, Jesus was not teaching a lesson about the common sinfulness of humankind and the grace of God, but of how the righteous must be judges of those who are in sin. The Pharisees were in the wrong not for wanting to stone the woman, but for NOT wanting to stone the man with her. The feel that, since they hold the true gospel, it is their job to judge others and their sinfulness. This is used in the conversion process as they convince professing Christians of their sinfulness.
            The Church of Wells intentionally separates members from family members that are not part of the group. The move to Wells reflects this as does a particularly saddening part of their website called ‘rebuttals.’[6] Here, members of the Church of Wells post public rebuttals of family members who do not agree with the Church of Wells or who have made public statements of their own concerning the group. This is common behavior for cults and acts like a circling of the wagons for them. They attempt to show the flaws of those going against them.
            Also troubling is the persecution/martyrdom expectation that the Church of Wells expects and feeds into. We see this in Gardner’s manifesto when he writes, “ The hill we stand upon to defend in the following Manifesto is the hill we have resolved to win, or to die upon.” There is an expectation that they will do battle for and possibly die for the beliefs that they hold. Filed under the ‘music’ section of their website is a disconcerting song titled “We’re Going to the Scaffold” that is written by member Cory McLaughlin.[7] The song speaks of walking to the scaffold and gallows because of their faith. There is an expectation of persecution and even death and the elders appear to use this to make their point to the people.  
            In all, I found that the Church of Wells has some doctrine that appears to be evangelical but has a practice that is clearly reflective of a cult.

In the coming days, I will give more of my conclusions and observations. 

[1] http://www.baylor.edu/lariatarchives/news.php?action=story&story=38585
[2] http://www.baylor.edu/lariatarchives/news.php?action=story&story=38764
[3] http://companies.findthecompany.com/l/30615455/Charity-Enterprises-Incorporated-in-Wells-TX
[4] http://www.thechurchofwells.com/statement-of-faith.html
[5] http://www.thechurchofwells.com/our-manifesto.html
[6] http://www.thechurchofwells.com/rebuttals.html
[7] See Appendix
 

 

12/05/2013 12:22 pm  #17


Re: What other spiritual leaders/pastors have to say

Wow, wow, and wow. You sir, win the internet.

What a fantastic write-up! It's so great to see more information pour in through a different set of academic eyes. I think that if a few of us teamed up, with our powers combined, we could defeat the evil CoW!

http://sciencefiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/151.jpg


(A sly aptain Planet reference)

Ok a few more serious observations.

1.

In an intriguing interpretation of the woman caught in adultery in John the Church of Wells teaches that Jesus never condemned the stoning of the woman. Instead, his condemnation was for those that brought the woman since they did not bring the man also. In their mind, Jesus was not teaching a lesson about the common sinfulness of humankind and the grace of God, but of how the righteous must be judges of those who are in sin. The Pharisees were in the wrong not for wanting to stone the woman, but for NOT wanting to stone the man with her.

Nothing surprises me anymore about what CoW does/says. BUT, I must say that this made me leap out of my seat in amazement. Where did you hear about this interpretation? I'd love to look more into it.

2. Admin, can this get it's own (maybe sticky) thread? Large, throrough works like this shouldn't be hidden in an existing thread. 

I can't wait to hear more of your observations! Thanks again for your contributions and for being part of our community. 

 

12/05/2013 12:45 pm  #18


Re: What other spiritual leaders/pastors have to say

concernedhere wrote:

...I want you to understand the context of my conclusions. I am a Pastor of a Southern Baptist Church and friends with a family who have daughter that is now part of the CoW...

Thank you sir! This is the clearest explanation of the CoW that I've seen. I admit that I've only skimmed their online documents and never found anything glaringly wrong with them and I was always curious where their strange practices came from.

I look forward to your coming posts.

 

12/05/2013 6:07 pm  #19


Re: What other spiritual leaders/pastors have to say

All good stuff. Concernedhere, your personal perspectives and opinions are more valuable than the background summary. As clergy, you have a certain weight and credibility and respect. I'm fatigued with pastors/seminarians/God professionals saying this all sounds just fine. They are "shepherds" and leaders. An inherent responsibility to call it when you see it, in my opinion. Your vigilance and opinion is important and 'the flock' looks to you. That responsibility is common to all industries - it's called "second opinion" and "peer review" and "oversight." Thank you for being brave and courageous and willing to take a stand, concernedhere.
Although I think I'm coming to an understanding that protestants look at it in terms of a shared belief or some bit they don't believe in, rather than seeing the practices and the bigger picture.

We have a section for deconstructing the background and origins of the the group starting with the beginning ("...the early days...") and moving forward chronologically to now ("Current existence"). Looks this would be good cross-posted there ("Who are they, again?").
http://faith.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=70#p70

Corporate structure/CoW Incomes: http://faith.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=37

If readers haven't looked at those threads, I recommend it.

 

 

12/05/2013 6:51 pm  #20


Re: What other spiritual leaders/pastors have to say

http://factnet.org/vbforum/forum/religions-religious-sub-sects-and-religious-or-spiritual-cults/15403-church-of-wells-aka-you-must-be-born-again?p=574011#post574011

It's long, but worth the read. Just a clipping here.

Polaris wrote:

 01-13-2013, 12:36 AM

<snip>

Here's what they have to say about the Ten Commandments:

"Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee" (Ex. 20:12).
We know that Christ purposed to bring the sword and division, but in the terms of Micah 7:6 it is said to be a salvation through the dishonoring of your father rather than the submissive honoring of him. The most prominent argument in opposition to the doctrine of righteous division heretofore argued is from the Ten Commandments, saying, "honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee" (Ex. 20:12). Those who did dishonor their father were committing grievous sin in the Old Testament. “Impossible,” says the family, “this can't be God and must be sin! God says to ‘honour your father and mother.’” Yet, to say that honour to our fathers can be properly kept in the OT sense even while the NT call for a sword and disunity is maintained, this is declared by Christ to be impossible. Jesus Christ interprets “dishonour” in Micah 7:6 to mean a “sword” and “division” in the gospel accounts. Therefore, the Lord is saying that it is righteousness compelling the saints to rise in enmity against the Satanic tyranny of their unconverted parents, and thus they fulfill the saying, "the son dishonoureth the father" (Micah 7:6). Christ is calling for a sword and division, which is a dishonoring of our fathers.

By "unconverted" and "carnal" and "unsaved," they mean anyone who does not accept their doctrine and principle and practice. They mean other churches. Family. Pastors. The whole world is against them; it is Satan conspiring against the Righteous.

Here's another interesting interpretation of Scripture in the Bible and what they believe Jesus meant. The context is judgement, casting the first stone. In this case, they've reinterpreted it to mean something entirely different than conventional wisdom. It sounds really close to Sharia Law to me.

"The false prophets have made their jesus out to be one who does not burn in zeal to burn the earth in judgment. They say that jesus is dislocated from the OT God, that this is in a new age, and that jesus has a new mind on things because it is the New Covenant, thus the OT God is an ancient and evil god – I speak foolishly. They are the same God! One popular misrepresentation of Christ is preached from John 8:3-11.

"And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more" (John 8:3-11)."

Is Jesus Christ against stoning the guilty? Is He opposed to justice and judgment in this way while the NT covenant is not yet enacted by the death of the Testator (Heb. 9:16)? He wrote the OT out of the righteous goodness of His own heart! How then can He be against it? First, you must understand something about the biblical command of stoning. It was used as the most common OT form of public execution (Deut. 21:21). When a crime which lawfully demanded death for the sinner was committed, and you witnessed it, even if this person was your wife, mother, son, or daughter, God commands merciless judgment against them no matter how dear and near they are to you carnally. 

No familial idolatry is allowed! No pity, sparing, or hiding of the criminal. If you were the witness, you must expose him to public execution. If you were the only witness, your hand laden with a stone must be first to stone him, and after you then all the people (Deut. 13:9). This is what is meant by the saying, "thine hand shall be first upon him." Can you imagine the eyes of your guilty family member - your dearest one –looking into his or her eyes that cry out for the slight of judgment, for just a one-time pitiful pardon, and yet all those who wished to live must walk out the mercilessness of God's good judgment. The principle that this judgment by stoning hinges upon is the first-hand witnesses of the crime. Those who caught the crime in action must be first to stone them, or in other words, to "first cast a stone" – says Jesus Christ. The others will not follow except by the surety of the witness himself striking the confident blow which initiates the execution.

Now what happened in John 8:5-11 with the stoning of this adulterer? Why was it withheld? Now listen. The Pharisees brought a woman who was said to be caught in adultery, "in the very act." In such a circumstance of catching adultery "in the very act," it is required by law that both the man and woman engaging in this act must be brought to die.

Here's the good part:

"Jesus knew the law and understood that the man’s absence disqualified the justice of stoning, and therefore the sifting, heart searching, and disbanding question the Lord rebuked them with, was, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her" (John 8:7). He was not disagreeing with stoning! He was calling out the witness who caught the adulterers in the act of adultery and boldly declaring that he is in sin for not bringing the male as the law states for terms of stoning, and the first stone thrower is the witness, so with him lies the sin!"

What does that mean? It means that Jesus wasn't saying anything about kindness, compassion, acknowledging one's own sin, or forgiveness. It means... umm, lemme see if I can figure it out... Jesus was mad because the crowd wasn't executing the other guy, too! The "first stone" business? Jesus meant the person who was starting the execution off with the first stone was a bigger sinner for not bringing the guy as well.
Really? There's 11 more pages where that came from. Read it.
Maybe you agree with this theology and doctrine. Maybe this is consistent with your own beliefs, or this appeals to you. That's fine. No problem.

The latest on Facebook: "If we lived in old testament days the majority of pastors from the modern "church" would be put to death."

The majority of pastors. "The" modern church. Well, which one? All of them? This is not qualified or quantified. Not "some" or "a few" or "the one that we don't like." It's collective.

This is the reason I'm here. The reason I started this thread on this particular forum. I'm not here to debate philosophy and scripture. I'm not a rabbi nor a Biblical scholar seeking a deeper understanding of Christianity or looking for a fireside chat. I'm not asking 'why' they believe this stuff. I'm here to find out where this comes from. If this is a line of thinking of a recognized sect/group, if this is doctrine from an identified lineage of theology, if this is recognizable as originating from some specific group, or brand new stuff. 

This is Factnet, examining "Coercive Practices of Cults & Religions." I expected to use this forum as a resource to discuss this with others who are familiar with this stuff.

I would like to know if this comes from "Local Church" and Watchman Nee philosophy. Is this consistent with Anabaptist doctrine? This new church seems to have started with Ray Comfort and Living Waters in Bellflower, California. Is that what this is, or are they inventing something different?

It's a good site, but a great deal of rhetorical debate and theological intellectualism. Way beyond me. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png

 

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